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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: Esperanto anyone? |
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I have been surprised in my online conversations at the difficulty in communicating in English even with other people who speak English as their primary language. Complex conversation with people who speak English as a secondary language is extremely more difficult.
I like the idea of Esperanto being a neutral language which allows us to reach out and meet people of different countries half way.
Looking briefly through the online information and courses it seems to me that Esperanto should be relatively easy to learn.
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Chris Stewart
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
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Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: English as universal language |
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I think Chris, you are on the right track with your sincere intentions, but for the moment, let me cast my vote for English as the universal language.
Definition...
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/Esperant
Esperanto
"(ĕsprän´tô) , an artificial language introduced in 1887 and intended by its inventor, Dr. Ludwik Lejzer Zamenhof (1859—1917), a Polish oculist and linguist, to ease communication between speakers of different languages. In the 20th cent. it has been taught in schools and universities throughout the world but has not received wide acceptance as an international language. Its grammar and lexicon are relatively unfamiliar to users who do not know other Indo-European languages; its syntax, spelling, and pronunciation are influenced especially by Slavonic."
Studying the ancient languages as an amateur, in my non-scientific, non academic way, I see virtually identical Egyptian-Babylonian words, names, phrases appearing all over the world..in Chinese, in Japanese, in African tribal languages, certainly in the Latin languages... I believe the ancient myth-legend that there was only one main language at one time. It certainly seemed to make things very prosperous for the Egyptian, then the Greek cultures to show their presence around the world, possibly because of this ancient commonality of language.
But then things got real complicated...
For example, we now see two main Chinese languages, with 5 generally popular "main languages", 100 lesser known dialect languages within China itself. English is now being heavily taught in schools as a second language, I believe, if you are lucky enough to attend schools.
In India, English is now the primary language, with 100 individual native languages.
In Africa, how many languages are there, and how many primary adopted languages? Answer I believe: 100s of the first flavor, then French, English, Arabic, Dutch, etc. English is a sought-after second language.
And how many alphabet structures are there? Hundreds? Thousands, maybe?
Would a compromise be... have a singular alphabet structure, with an agreed upon identical phonetic symbolic structure, so that a lay person like myself might be able to pull up a book on Farsi, and be able to converse in basic Farsi? Likewise, that person could use the same book and the same alphabetic string to speak English to me?
Otherwise, Net, net... isn't the world complicated enough without adding a theoretical language?
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csintexas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know much about language. I would be happy if someone would just fix English. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to make it phonetic and take out all the exceptions and stuff.
Here is an Esperanto faq page:
http://www.esperanto.net/veb/faq.html
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Chris Stewart
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SDR
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Wud u rilly b cumfrtble tokkin lik this ?
The best English "coach" is the written page; if you enjoy reading you will be constantly reminded of proper usage and spelling. By reading I mean journals and good newspapers, for instance; those who get most of their information from television will get no help with written English !
The language is constantly changing; there are some who feel that the state of public education in the last thirty or forty years has contributed to a decline in the average ability of Americans to read and write fluently.
I was fortunate to grow up in a particularly language-conscious environment, and not to have suffered dyslexia or other deficiencies. I realize this is not always the case. But a desire to be understood correctly, and some pleasure taken in the full use of our beautiful and subtle language, will result in greater effort to improve -- and a sincere effort is all that anyone could ask for. Just as you wouldn't let an unchecked drawing leave your office, so it is thought necessary to edit your messages, before or after they are posted, as a matter of pride if not of respect.
I must say that I admire those who can uncritically receive the writing or speaking of anyone and overlook the errors, concentrating instead on the intended meaning, and replying to the best of their ability. There are few here -- well, okay, maybe one -- whose English is so hopelessly garbled as to be indecipherable much of the time !
Carry on. . . |
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SDR
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed, I mean to say that the level of writing here is really very good; apparently architects and other adherents are not neglecting their reading and writing. . .
Students in other lands are sometimes suffering, however; there is also a tendency to use text-message-speak, which I think should be confined to the tiny screen as a matter of courtesy and professionalism.
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csintexas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: |
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"Wud u rilly b cumfrtble tokkin lik this ?"
If that is phonetic I would say you have a very thick accent 
u does not sound like "you"
b does not sound like "be"
You are confusing text message shorthand with phonetics. Phonetic means a word is spelled the same way it is spoken.
"Indeed, I mean to say that the level of writing here is really very good; apparently architects and other adherents are not neglecting their reading and writing. . ."
-I would not agree but I suppose it is a relative judgement.
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
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Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: I resemble these remarks! |
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It would be nice if we had spell check on these forums, to clean up our posts... I am guilty of bad spelling, for sure, bad grammer, why not?
"Wud u rilly b cumfrtble tokkin lik this ?"
Yes, I could deal with this. If I had a Korean type this, or a Urghut, or an Ibo tribesman write this, and I could respond back to that person in some understandable phonetic language to get my point across, sure.
My favorite is Jamaican English, which is a wonderful flavor, all its own, and you more or less get the point.
If I said the words, "Biggee down, tree to go!", with a Bob Marley flavuh, would you understand?
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csintexas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: |
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"Biggee down, tree to go!"
A big tree will be cut down?
I keep Word Perfect open and use its spell checker. I also use an online dictionary. But the language is so screwed up computers can't correct it very well.
Here is a group trying to reform english:
http://www.spellingsociety.org/index.php
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csintexas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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During lunch I decided to invent my own phonetic English.
I call it 21st English:
A as in say
B as in bat
C as in cat
D as in deep
E as in be
F as in fort
G as in go
H as in home
I as in right
J as in jump
K -------------not needed could be replaced with vowel modifier such as /
L as in light
M as in men
N as in no
O as in go
P as in pass
Q ----------------not needed
R as in right
S as in simple
T as in top
U as in student
V as in vice
W as in want
X ---------------not needed
Y as in yoke
Z as in zebra
Sound Modifiers: (these groups always make the same sound)
A/ - bat
AN -sand
E/ - set
I/ - sit
O/ - book
OU - sought
U/ - but
CH - chick
SH - sheet
NG -bring
Examples:
Wo/t yu realy be cu/mfortabl toulkeng lic thi/s ?
(I changed would to wo/t so that it does not sound like wood)
Inded I men tu say tha/t the le/vl ov riteng hi/r i/z rea/ly ve/ry go/d. Uparintly arcitecs and u/thr a/dhirents ar not negle/cteng the/r redeng and writeng.
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csintexas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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"Inded I men tu say tha/t the le/vl ov riteng hi/r i/z rea/ly ve/ry go/d. Uparintly arcitecs and u/thr a/dhirents ar not negle/cteng the/r redeng and writeng."
correction: not should be spelled nout
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Kevin
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Joined: 13 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Cute.
I guess inventing one's own general language is especially useful for talking with one's self. |
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SDR
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Very clever and consistent, I'm sure. If we had no language and had to choose one, I'd say that would do as well as any. Or, we could adopt Esperanto. . .
The reason this doesn't happen is probably that we already speak and write one or more languages adequately if not brilliantly, and tossing it (them) probably seems like a (temporary) step backward -- in addition to the challenge of getting a sufficient number of people to adopt it with you !
So, like it or not, we are probably stuck with English. As most of us are quite proficient with it (I maintain that the standard among the principle correspondents in our recent threads, including yourself, is more than adequate in usage and spelling) I propose only that anyone unhappy with his own efforts can improve them -- and that no one can really help others if they don't recognize a problem. I'm brash enough to offer unsolicited help on occasion (I PM'd a spelling list to Mr Corell last year and was told it would be used. . .  ) but this is usually not welcome, I'm sure.
I think spell-check is a mixed blessing; the few errors that I've detected here recently would have passed spell-check with flying colors because the word typed was a legitimate spelling -- of a different word than was intended. Site, sight and cite each have distinct meanings; even in spoken English they are distinguished from each other by the context of the sentence in which they are used. Only rarely would physical harm be done by the misuse of such words (hence the Able Baker Charlie code used by safety officials when communication by radio, etc) so it is more of a nicety to be employing the correct term in every case.
Designers are concerned with niceties, aren't they. . .? |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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I don't think improving the language could be concidered a step backward just because it is not easy.
There are several reasons why we would benifit from improving English:
1. It would be easier for non english speaking persons to learn
2. Less teaching resourses would need to be spent on the basics of spelling, etc.
3. It would simplify computer speech recognition
4. It would reduce misunderstandings in communication between people
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Chris Stewart
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csintexas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: |
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My wife pointed out another error above writing should be spelled "riteng"
It's hard to break old habbits.
Another handy feature that Esperanto uses is that the opposite of any word (that has an opposite) is made by adding a prefix to it. In other words the opposite of right would be something like unright and the opposite of fast would be unfast. This not only makes good since but also greatly reduces the number of words one must remember.
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SDR
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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habit
sense
You make good points. I suppose it's easy for me to defend the language as it is now, as I have spent a lifetime accumulating it. We always love what we know, and know what we love. And we love to use well the beautiful tools we have come to know.
But you are certainly not alone in decrying the troubling and illogical variances in the vocabulary. It would not bother me at all to see a new version of the language arrive, for the reasons you state. It's just that I actually *enjoy* the randomness of the spellings and pronunciations, I guess -- as I enjoy the peculiarities of French pronunciation, though I hardly speak the language.
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