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SDR
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Location: San Francisco
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 Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to say that it's an art to persuade your client to your vision. There's no guarantee you'll succeed -- it's his property and his money. If you have gained his trust and respect you have a better chance of influencing his taste. It's probably fair to say that the great works of architecture, and especially those that were not the usual thing in their time, are the result of a strong relationship of trust between client and architect.
mx ?
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csintexas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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First of all I don't think this is necessarily a better solution. The guy said he had limited funds and now he is talking about ripping off a brand new porch just to change it to this? (and even removing the third garage bay?)
Who hasn't had clients that change their mind?
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Chris Stewart
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mx2
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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One of the biggest mistakes is limiting the exploration for appropriateness based upon superficial limitations, ie, budget constriants. This is often approached by the deisgner as "let's make it simple and cheap". Now, this is not at all an attempt to ignore budget...not what I'm saying. Selling the client is indeed an Art, as SDR points out, that has nothing to do with Architecture but simple social skills. For one, Madimel, I rarely tell a client falt out "no"...and the few times I have it came with a rather lengthy discussion about what they really wanted. I can cite many examples, but I'll give you a very simple one:
I was asked by a "friend of a family member" to design their kitchen. By the time I finished visiting their home to discuss, I left with the assignment to re-design the entire public spaces (foyer, living, dining and kitchen). They gave me very, very specific instructions as to what they wanted...down to the inch, literally. I told them what I liked and disliked about their plan and talked about alternatives. I then proposed I show them the various options for their review. Fast forward...they loved my proposal but the wife insisted on their original but conceded some changes and now plan to relocate the dining and living room to accomodate these things.
My point in all of this....I never said no, I never insisted my way was the only way and always looked to improve upon what I was given. But in the end, the project they thought they want is no way near what they will be getting. They will be getting what I know to be the full gamut of appropriate design because I demonstrated that what was needed is beyond what they initially requested...and proved it. In the end, I'm glad to compromise but not compromise my integrity. If something truly were not right, then I would definitely have to say "no". But then if I'm that adamant about it, I should easily sway the client to agree. If I can't then I have to assume either my argument is not valid and give it up or steer it in another direction or my clients are completely unreasonable. 9 of 10 times it's the former and the very rare time that I have encountered extremely difficult clients, we quickly finish their projects per any contract requirements and there is no repeat business regardless....
No love lost.
In this case, the client got what they requested sure...but had the architect taken the time to engage in a broader discussion beginning with a bit of history of the period, the wants and needs of the client, the possible scenarios, the details and bigger picture and provide the options...all of the options...to the client to decide if they still want to stick with their budget. Many times, when a client sees the value of the better ideas, they will stretch to meet those changes. But if you never even think of showing it to them...well...?
In other words, I can agree with "the client chose from the menu the architect provided". But then I question the "menu". Was it a wide range? Was it appropriate? Was it inventive or an improvement? Or a slight variation of the same combined elements? Afterall, there IS a difference between professional service and a business...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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41buick
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: final consensus? |
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Hello all,
Is it possible to get a consensus, on the different porch designs that I've submitted? It seemed to me that the overall response was very positive (except for csintexas) regarding the very last design I submitted. csintexas stated: "Well I'm not sure an architect would put a craftsman porch on a neo-colonial house but I suppose it is headed toward the style of the day. Perhaps hang a star or two around somewhere and some stone coins on the corners"
In case you didn't see the last design it appears on page 4 of this forum. Here's a description of it. It features a shed roof extended to the garage with 3 pillars resting on stone bases and a low stone wall along the front of the porch.
I recieved some positive comments about some of the other designs, also. None of the designs were meant to be absolute or definitive in every aspect of the design. For example, the last design doesn't absolutley have to use 3 pillars or include the stone work. There could be 4 pillars and there could be brick used instead of stone or neither of them. It's the "basic" design, I'm looking at, i.e. roof style, pillars, overall size, and what I'm trying to determine fits my house best, not the individual details.
So please tell me, what design fits my house best? What design improves the curb appeal best. Thank you all for your immense help. 41buick |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well what is the goal?
I'm pretty sure the more money you spend the more you will improve curb appeal. It's kind of like your car you can spend endless quantities of money fixing it up.
You could rip the entire front off of it and change it to stone (that's popular these days) How about a wrap around porch? How about change it to a Victorian, Classical, or maybe Tudor style. I know -cottage style! Something needs to be done with those windows and fake shutters.
What about the rest of the house? Maybe there are things wrong with the inside that no amount of curb appeal will help. People really like big kitchens and lots of lights. What about the back yard? What is the neighborhood like? What is the value of surrounding homes? Perhaps it would look better if the garage was detached and moved around back. What's the deal with that driveway anyway? Is it asphalt? I bet brick paver's would look better. Outdoor kitchens are real popular. Oh and negative edge pools with a plasma tv that pops out of a rock waterfall. Do you have a home theater room? Those are big these days. What about the grass? It looks very patchy. Maybe a winding stone sidewalk and landscape lighting and some up lighting on the house. And lots of flowers.
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SDR
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Joined: 02 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Bad day on the ranch, Chris ?
Buick, you said "I'm trying to determine [what] fits my house best, not the individual details." To us the details are integral with the success or failure of any proposal. But I get your point.
The expression "curb appeal" always makes me think that the owner intends to sell at the earliest opportunity -- or that he values the opinion of strangers over his own taste. But I admire anyone who wishes to make his property look and work as well as it can.
I like your shed roof porch, and the photo that mx2 linked is the most appropriate version of that porch in respect to your house.
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mx2
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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CS in Texas is our resident naysayer...we love him for it!  (just effin' with ya buddy)...
His comment about Craftsman porch is in regard to the detailing, not necessarily the general structure. It doesn't look Colonial, like the rest of your house. I would recommend you do some research on Colonial houses, particularly period houses (historic), as a point of beginning. Once you engross yourself in that world and see what previous Colonial houses expressed, you will immediately see why your rendering doesn't quite "jive" with the rest of your house. You would be doing a disservice in that manner. However, most of us agree that (ignoring budget issues) the elongated front porch adds a quality to the front of your house that works very well. Now you just have to work out those details to get it right...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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No I was just trying to explore every conceivable option as mx2 had suggested 
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Chris Stewart
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mx2
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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So, Chris, if a client asks you to relocate their front door...you would just do it? Or if you had the presence to discuss and present various options, would you actually say the following to them?:
| Quote: | | ...Outdoor kitchens are real popular. Oh and negative edge pools with a plasma tv that pops out of a rock waterfall. Do you have a home theater room? Those are big these days. What about the grass? It looks very patchy. Maybe a winding stone sidewalk and landscape lighting and some up lighting on the house. And lots of flowers. |
I assumed you did have a bad day at the ranch...cuz it wasn't being nice or helpful.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't trying to be nice or helpful I was trying to further the discussion.
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Chris Stewart
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SDR
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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With sarcasm ? Well, I guess it's something. . .
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mx2
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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To work with a client, to convince them of "better", is indeed a social art form...not everyone is capable of having a conversation with the clients that can lead to improvement. What's the point of "just" furthering the conversation unless being productive as well?
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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What's wrong with sarcasm?
Why, where any of my ideas incorrect?
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Chris Stewart
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SDR
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Sarcasm strongly implies distain, either for the topic, or the original poster, or for some comment by another reader. Having vented, do you now wish to be excused (without copping to your insult), or should we just ignore you ?
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csintexas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know SDR, you've always been free to do what you want.
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Chris Stewart
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