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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1906
Location: Miami, Florida
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 Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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So we should do what we ought not do? Or do not do what we ought not do? Sounds like the weather channel...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 580
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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howdy folks
While I’ve been away I’ve been coming up with the beginnings of a few theories of my own. But they’re too much to dive into in a furtive post from work. I would suggest, briefly, since it follows on from some of this discussion even if it’s not directly responsive to the opening post, that architects might like to consider approaching its practice as a popular discourse with their application of expert technique. The notion that the designs of buildings which house people and comprise everybody’s surroundings are aiming at responding to critiques which lie in the territory of expert critical discourse is, to me, becoming something of a bad habit. Simply to be misunderstood and thus marginalised is not an Art; it’s to confuse side-effects with imperatives. For those who despair of being too sophisticated for general tastes, I’d argue that one needs to shift focus from the negative (‘they’ll never understand me, the fools!’) to the positive ‘let’s make a truly witty remark that Paris Hilton will actually giggle over’.
The other thing that strikes me in relation to famous architects is that their processes, pronouncements and outputs have come to transcend the contexts in which they actually worked: they and their work ‘stands alone’. Our fondness in imagining their creative processes is, in part, a fondness for imagining our own creative process in which that nuisancy, compromising context doesn’t operate. So they come to represent an ideal of sorts. Take, for example, the architect Peter Zumthor. Isn’t one of his most admirable characteristics the perception we have of his freedom to work exquisite craft, directed only by his chosen ideas? In admiring his work are we not also tacitly wishing we, too, could ‘get away’ with that? That whole lifestyle?
So we come to the role of Art. Art is not simply a craft skill. Art is also the broadest possible understanding of what it means to be a living human being, this very second and in the entire sweep of geological time. An artist is a director of his values; she re-creates those values fresh every day, in living response to a constantly changing world. And if those values come into conflict with prevailing attitudes then they must be questioned. After this questioning, if they remain solid, they must be fought for. But fought for at the level and in the context of the conflict’s origin: as one human being’s disagreement with another. This isn’t, fundamentally, an architectural issue. One’s architecture is merely the reflection of our human concerns. Perhaps the first true master-stroke of a design is to refuse to work with a client whose values are at variance with one’s own.
Damnit, that sounds pompous  ... trying to summarise too much I guess |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1906
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Welcome back solidred...stick around...we have much to discuss.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Hi solidred 
Either that or lower our standards.
Famous Architects - "gods" or cultural icons?
...or lucky people who found rich patrons?
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Chris Stewart
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mx2
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Perhaps the first true master-stroke of a design is to refuse to work with a client whose values are at variance with one’s own. |
Well, let's put this in perspective...one cannot buy a draftign table or Autocad and expect to be choosy about which project to begin with? Only with experience and practiced skill can one reach the point when one can be choosy about clients. That's the point where clients seek the Architect to do work based upon previsou projects already well touted. Don't you think?
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 580
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Hiya youz two 
The desire for freedom; the struggle about whether this is a choice or not is, of course, one we all battle with. I'm assuming none of us have private incomes etc. and therefore the money has to come from somewhere and we simply cannot afford to hang around waiting for ideal circumstances. Furthermore, they're unlikely to just appear out of the blue...
However, over the decade or so I've been in professional practice, I've noticed a variety of attitudes to work; what it amounts to and where it comes or ought to come from not only amongst a succession of bosses but also amongst my friends from University and Grad School (some of whom did, indeed, have a mysterious ability to survive in places like London for years at a time with no apparent income stream).
And its taken me this length of time to actually become decisive on the matter.
Firstly, it's not an all-or-nothing black-and-white scenario. There are shades of both circumstances and attitudes, aspects of which are entirely within the control of our own agendas. To achieve the best balance I think one simply has to be clear about what one wants. Then the negotiations with the varying demands on our time, energy and resources can begin. As an example, last year I decided to respond to an offer in this very forum to participate in a student event in Romania. This seemed a natural development from a re-kindled enthusiasm for architectural ideas, discussions and projects which, again, started in this very forum. Then, six months ago after a second such workshop (this time in Greece, presented with someone (again!) from this very forum) I decided that, looking towards my future in the office I was then working in, it was just no longer acceptable to bend and twist into a shape that just wasn't me in order to achieve things I had absolutely no interest in and for clients I simply could not respect (not as people, but in their commercial agendas and accompanying value system).
I had no money and huge debts.
But I decided to look for a job working four days a week.
The employment agency persuaded me, instead, to attend interviews for high level, full-time, permanent jobs.
I attended a few interviews, second interviews, then 'phoned the agent up and said, 'thanks, but no thanks. A four-day-a-week contract position is what I'm looking for.'
Within a week, I had landed such a position in the best office in town, where I do a purely technical job, lower in the hierarchy than the in the job I left, but on a good project and in a capacity I'm entirely comfortable in and proficient about. So they're happy.
In the extra free time (which is making all the difference in the world; believe me!) I've edited a video of the workshop in Greece, I'm about to enter an architectural competition, I'm embarking on some song-writing and, most importantly, for the first time in a decade I'm full of ideas, ambitions and solid hopes: things I intend to achieve.
And I'm happy!
Basically, I'm deciding that in order to move mountains, one has to shovel a little dirt  |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like things are going well,
I think we do generally have to keep moving in the direction that will help achieve our goals. Also the more you are willing to sacrifice to that end the more likely you are to achieve them. I've always tried to only do things I enjoy doing as much as possible.
I'm not sure how much this ties in with the topic though. Maybe the new topic would be: What does it take to ever do anything interesting in this profession?
Is it achievable for the average person? or Help! I'm stuck in a boring job and this isn't what I went to school all those years for. I want (insert recognized architect's name here) job. Which would have been a more interesting topic than the original one.
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1906
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Solidred...sounds like a good move, but I caution you on one element that will haunt you for years to come. Get you're license bro...stop f*cking around...
I say that with a lot of reservation because I am really talking to myself...you and I have the same problem: big ideas, uncompromisable integrity, commitment to the profession, desire to learn and experiment, an eye for bullshit and a lack of the license to practice that what we preach.
Me, I'm out of excuses...I have no time, I have no money, I have no this and that...meanwhile it's freakin' time. If I had my license right now, first I'd be making over 100K, second I could quit and start my own firm and struggle doing what I really want to do...my own projects in MY name.
Something tells me you're kinda in the same boat...but I'm glad you manuevered to put yourself in the position where you are inspired. I have a wife, kid, mortgaage and tons of debt...4 days wouldn't cut it...shit, 6 days doesn't cut it. 
What were we talking about again...? Ah yes...being choosy architects. If one was filthy rich and Architecture was to be what it was originally (a HOBBY!!) then yes, we should wait for ideal circumstances and leave "construction" to the riff-raff...but in reality, we are the riff-raff and Architecture has gone mainstream, just about commodified as of late. Since when do Architects design bathroom additions?
But more importantly, I get your gist...once we compromise our vision (the art side) and accept the role of a draftsperson, we longer contribute anything to the built environment and marginalize our place in society. And in order to do so, we must make all effort to exercise our talent and skill as often as possible, regardless of the demand for less talent and more commodified drafting. I think that is THE fight of fights in our profession and requires a delicate balancing act...it is at the center of it all, from marketing, billing, negotiations, schematic, code compliance, constuction documents, const administration, site planning, artistry, poetry, politics, environmentalism, accounting, building, etc, etc, etc...when we push for excellence, we have to deal with all these issues and more, simultaneously.
mx2.5
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*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 553
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Boats again?
Famous architects.
Gods or cultural icons?
I had to look up famous in the dictionary.
1)Widely known master builder.
I'm fence riding this one.
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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I was reminded of this thread while watching an interview with Jean Nouvel on French television.
my only regret was that the interview was just a few minutes, and the interviewer kept butting in.
Nouvel would not have much tolerance of being described as a "God", but the awarding of the Pritzker is seen as making him an icon of French culture.
maybe luck did play its part in his career, but he is totally involved in each project - large or small.
he talked about the distinction between "generic" architecture (one type of design that is simply changed three or four times on a computer and then shoved on a site wherever it is) and "specific" architecture which is designed for its location, for its individual purpose and setting.
he discussed the problems he had over his wonderful Stade de France project - he won the competition and then the politicians mucked it up (reminded me of Zaha's Cardiff Opera House).
the interviewer then asked if architecture is an art form. Nouvel pointed out that no client asks for something poetic. The complexities of what they need and want, the budgets, the timing - all these come first and then, maybe, one can create the art, something poetic, out of it all.
maybe a bit of luck, considerable talent - and a very great deal of plain hard work.
listening to Nouvel, like seeing so much of his work, is refreshing. He wants his buildings to be seen as a gift - as giving to the people who use them.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1906
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Richard, for sharing that...it's refreshing to hear such things, as it validates some of my most personal feelings about it all and inspires me, as well, because it's a reminder that there is hope afterall for this godforsaken profession...or at least hope for those who wish to do "better" than "generic". I could care less about the famous...in truth, it's a pointless discussion.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 553
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Richard, Computers are best for discussion of architecture and not architecture. Engineers can play with them. Graph paper and a pencil, stick and sand or just point your finger.
mx2, I don't think any discussion is pointless, the question may be moot, but not pointless. If you sense a problem with the profession of architects, it's real. I'm a back to the roots guy. and I hope I bring some folks with me. The problem starts in the roots.
"Know how" to master hitting a nail on the head.
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1906
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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I sense a problem with many things in life, architecture as a profession is one of them, sure... I find that discussing the route to fame as an architect to be pointless because fame is the result of many things that may occur in an Architects career, but it is not a goal in itself that can be achieved without pursuing real goals such as working on great projects. A worthy discussion would be to discuss the road an Architect takes during his/her career. As they say; it's the journey and not the destination that counts. Why talk about the FAME of a person? Even Gehry or his like is talked about in reference to his work...not his level of fame.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 580
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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"Solidred...sounds like a good move, but I caution you on one element that will haunt you for years to come. Get you're license bro...stop f*cking around... "
... sorry to disabuse you of the thought mx2, but I got my license several years ago  What's stopping me from setting up my own office isn't that. It's that one needs to have some sort of a reputation with clients with whom one wants to work before there's any point in making onesself available that way. How's your own license coming on? I guess having a license makes me feel finally free of the 'official' learning/educational arc that started way back in High School. Now, the learning and the specific agenda's all my own...
I think it was in the Tarantino film 'Death Proof' I was watching this morning that someone said along the lines of 'If you wanna chat up a girl who's famous, it's better to be famous yourself first. Then, maybe, it'll be them chatting up *you*!'
Girls / clients, getting employed / getting married... they have much in common. |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1906
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Fantastic! You and I would make the odd couple for sure...I have enough experience with putting together a set of documents, from A-Z, but don't have the license. I started the complete opposite of you...I wanted the experience, then the license. That was foolish...hindsight being 20/20 and all. Now I have too much responsibilities and so little time to myself...and more excuses and reasons for not being able to get it done. But I have to...you on the other hand, I think you should follow the advice of my previous boss: jump! If you fly then you'll be okay...if not...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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