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lavardera
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 414
Location: merchantville, nj
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 Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Wish: PCadd to drive automated panel framer |
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I've complained about the disconnect between the architects cad system and the production builder's automated framing tools elsewhere, so I thought I should bring the wish to the PowerCadd forum.
I need the functionality to drive large scale industrial house building tools, such as an Autmated Framing Extruder using my CAD tool of choice, PowerCadd. I know none of the particulars of this, but I am willing to learn, and do whatever footwork is required to help bring this functionality about.
In my mind this is like the issue we had with plotter drivers at one point. We had no way to get our drawing data from our macs to the paper. Same thing here. Until some industry standard driver emerges vendors have to build the bridge. Larger CAD vendors will not respond to this - this is a residential scale building practices. Other CAD vendors are chasing large offices with many CAD seats. Smaller practitioners need this, and any designer with these tools will have an advantage because their designs can be "tool ready" replacing hours of shop drawing prep by the manufacturer.
So ES? Alfred? Where do we start with something like this? What can I do to start it?
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greg |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Greg - Interesting.
I have provided DWG files for some commerical work and the manufacturer has used it to do their work. In particular some "crayon" colmuns at a daycare. The insulation manufacturer could make special shapes - they just asked for a DWG file. (which seems to be the universal language of computer love).
Of course, we all know the story of Gehry and his aerospace CAD program and the metal fabricators.
I have a client (a large regional building/home center) who can panelize your designs. However, they still input the work themselves because they want to control how the house gets broken down into panels. So I am wondering about the actual value of being able - as the architect - to run one of these machines from my own drawings. Do you really want that liability? Or is it better to let the manufacturer worry about those issues. They are more in tune to the outside issues of shipping, manufacturing and so on.
I am understanding your comments correctly?
Now beyond that - wouldn't ES want to go and corner this market with PowerCADD as the driver...... Easy to use, Easy to Learn, Economical for the small manufacturer. Plus Bill's just such a swell guy. And Alfred..... |
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 640
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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In the past, I've talked to friends who are very knowledgeable about this sort of this.
The reality is that each machine has its own software to run it, and they all use DWG/DFX for the input.
For machining, typically the shop will use a CAM program to work out the tool cutters, cutting sequence, tool paths, etc. And the CAM programs want the same DWG/DFX files for the input.
There are fully integrated programs which handle it all. The most popular of these is SolidWorks which runs on PCs but not Macs. By all accounts, it's a great program.
Alfred |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Alfred Scott wrote: | In the past, I've talked to friends who are very knowledgeable about this sort of this.
The reality is that each machine has its own software to run it, and they all use DWG/DFX for the input. |
I was thinking the same thing from the basic manufacturing knowledge that I have....... which would fill a thimble 
But it seems that as long as you can provide a DWG everything is fine.
What I see is - which is more based on the size of my project and hence the size/sophication of the contractors working on my projects - most contractors/suppliers don't use CAD or are very limited in their knowledge. Most of my work is renovations/additions ... so the suppliers are typically coming on site to take their own field measurements and hence really don't want my CAD files.
However - I could see where Greg is coming with his Modern House plans..... Greg are you getting to a point where you might actually sell the lumber package as a panelized kit? I have been thinking of that for a couple of the houses we have done...... I have considered working with the forementioned client and "selling" my design and the "panelized package" directly to the homeowner. Of course I am thinking locally only - not nationally such as your house plans. |
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lavardera
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 414
Location: merchantville, nj
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I am thinking less of CNC millling, and more of plate nailed trusses.
I think for milling and other CAM type activities a DXF/DWG file with an outline for the machine to follow is fine. But for building trusses, and increasingly wall panels the machine is fed different info from the drawing. It may be generating a stud cut list from the panel outline - that may be cut manually or by an automatic fed cut-off saw. In the case of a panel extruder these are all fed into the machine automatically.
So I'm not sure what the data it needs from the CAD drawing is, but its a little bit more involved than just an outline.
My motivation is to be able to provide fab ready data, and take the interpretation out of the hands of the manufacturer. I'm not trying to shift responsibility to the designer so you architects don't get your panties in a bunch. What normally goes on is the manufacturer gets your architectural drawings and turns that into shop drawings. But they have to interpret what you have done, which has uneven results. I'm just trying to get us closer to the machine so to speak.
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greg |
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lavardera
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 414
Location: merchantville, nj
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| phansford wrote: | | Greg are you getting to a point where you might actually sell the lumber package as a panelized kit? I have been thinking of that for a couple of the houses we have done...... I have considered working with the forementioned client and "selling" my design and the "panelized package" directly to the homeowner. Of course I am thinking locally only - not nationally such as your house plans. |
Yes, I am getting questions about it constantly, and that's leading me to learn more about this end of construction. I've been looking closely at how they build houses in Sweden and how framing is becoming automated here. Some of it is new - some has been going on for a long while like the plate nailed trusses.
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greg |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| lavardera wrote: | | phansford wrote: | | Greg are you getting to a point where you might actually sell the lumber package as a panelized kit? I have been thinking of that for a couple of the houses we have done...... I have considered working with the forementioned client and "selling" my design and the "panelized package" directly to the homeowner. Of course I am thinking locally only - not nationally such as your house plans. |
Yes, I am getting questions about it constantly, and that's leading me to learn more about this end of construction. I've been looking closely at how they build houses in Sweden and how framing is becoming automated here. Some of it is new - some has been going on for a long while like the plate nailed trusses. |
That seems like a natural direction for your modern house designs. Maybe start doing things locally, then find people (manufacturers like my client) who can put together your package in other parts of the country. So someone here in the midwest wants to buy a design, you can sell the package from a local source. Interesting ..... good luck.
Like I said - I am thinking of developing some of my designs and advertise them as purchasable from me through the local facility of my client. |
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lavardera
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 414
Location: merchantville, nj
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Ok - here is a AutoCad based overlay for driving these machines:
http://www.hsbcad.de/modules.php?id=1
note that it includes CNC data as an output option.
I'm not convinced that this is the real deal - it looks more like a framing modeler to me.
There are actually better examples for cabinet makers cutting panels from plywood - but again this is much more of an outline based fabrication - not an asselblage of studs as a wall panel or roof truss.
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greg |
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How Goes It
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: |
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I would guess Weinmann's Framer and a production router table are not all that different from one another.
They both use a controller (dedicated hardware / software) to run a bunch of servos, steppers, motors. In the case of the Framer, likely some type of actuator fires the nail gun.
Whereas with many large router tables you have the servos moving the spindle (think large router) around the table, in the case of the Framer, you likely have servos, steppers, motors likely moving studs or plates into place to be cut. Some smaller routers work along these lines - where the router stays stationary and the material is moved to the cutter.
Where you have a spindle doing the cutting on a router table, you have a cutoff saw doing the cutting on the Framer. Both cutters are rotary. The only difference is the diameter of the cutter is a lot bigger on the saw.
Where the 250 Series Framer has stud handling - well I have seen some type of material handling on big production router tables.
Whereas a router table may use vacuum to secure the material while a cut is being made, in the case of the Framer, it may be that the material is held in place (while being nailed up) by servos or actuators.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that the CAD/CAM package at the URL you posted, has some type of post processor from or for Weinmann, that generates some type of G-code that works with a Weinmann controller.
One difference between a Router and this Framer (assembler) I would think, is that it would likely be more difficult to deal with toolpaths (speed and such) for a router table that cuts metal when compared to any function on the assembler, as from what I read about spindles cutting harder materials, one can only master this through experience.
But I agree. When you look at a Router Table and then this Framer, these things do look a lot different. In actuality, they may have a whole lot more in common than meets the eye.
With all that said -- the CAD/CAM software you posted may generate just the code needed for a Weinmann Framer's controller. A call to Weinmann might be the ticket. |
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lavardera
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 414
Location: merchantville, nj
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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At some point I'll have to call them, but I'd like to learn a bit more before so I don't come across as knowing nothing - not being taken seriously. I have to be prepared.
There are router functions on the "multi-funtion-bridge" - this machine takes the extruded panel, fastens sheathing, and routes door and window openings.
But there is a fundamental difference between preparing a line drawing that is interpreted as a routing path, and one that represents a stud pick/cut-off list, and assembles the wall panel from parts. I have to see what the drawing prepared in CAD is like before handed off to the machine driver. Is it a 3d file with parametric objects? Is it a line drawing with centerline of studs?
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How Goes It
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| lavardera wrote: | | ... but I'd like to learn a bit more before so I don't come across as knowing nothing - not being taken seriously. |
You know --- I think I've made a living out of not coming across looking as dumb as I really am. LOL
So from what I'm told and from what I've read, and with regards to router tables (which I'm guessing is likely quite similar to your assembler as to the CNC basics), there's a few ways you could go about this.
You could go from a 2D CAD (with a floor plan),
Export using DWG or DXF,
Import into your Modeler where you model the walls in 3D showing studs, headers, etc.,
Likely export out of your Modeler using SAT, STEP or IGES,
Import into a CAD/CAM that has the particular Post Processor (G-code writer) that will work with the Controller on the Router Table you are using.
You can eliminate the 2D and start with the Modeler.
You can eliminate the 2D and the Modeler and model the wall in your CAD/CAM program that has the particular Post Processor you need, and then take your G-code file to the Controller, which is what I'm guessing this will do http://www.hsbcad.de/modules.php?LANGUAGE=en&id=1
As far as moving material or moving a router around --- it's all just servos, steppers, motors, actuators being controlled by a controller (computer that runs the CNC table), doing the same basic thing -- that is, a servo motor or stepper motor turning on to a certain rpm, at a certain time, within a programmed sequence.
A servo can also hold at a precise position, so these may be used to hold the studs in place as an actuator activates the nail gun. That is to say, I really think the basics of CNC routers and CNC assemblers are very much alike. They're both CNC gadgets controlling a number of motors and actuators, whether that motor is a servo motor used for moving a tool OR material, or a spindle (heavy router) or saw used for cutting something.
After writing the above, I did a search and found the below videos. There are transcripts for each video. This is great. Hopefully I'll get sometime latter today to look at these. But I briefly read one transcript (that covered G-code) and it looked pretty dawg gone good.
CNC is CNC. So if you are looking for a better understanding of the basics, I'd check these videos out. After all, I'm quite sure your Framer is basically just another Computer Numerically Controlled thing-a-ma-jig. So this may not specifically cover how to move plates and studs into position prior nail-up, none the less, at least you could get the basics of how things start to work.
http://www.cncinformation.com/cnc-ecourse-videos-learn-cnc-cnc-basics-video/
http://www.cncinformation.com/cnc-ecourse-videos-learn-cnc-cnc-basics-video/cnc-ecourse-day-1-introduction-to-cnc-video-2
http://www.cncinformation.com/cnc-ecourse-videos-learn-cnc-cnc-basics-video/cnc-ecourse-day-2-cnc-design
http://www.cncinformation.com/cnc-ecourse-videos-learn-cnc-cnc-basics-video/cnc-ecourse-day-3-cad-computer-aided-design
http://www.cncinformation.com/cnc-ecourse-videos-learn-cnc-cnc-basics-video/cnc-ecourse-day-4-cam-computer-aided-manufacturing-2
http://www.cncinformation.com/cnc-ecourse-videos-learn-cnc-cnc-basics-video/cnc-ecourse-day-5-cnc-control
http://www.cncinformation.com/cnc-ecourse-videos-learn-cnc-cnc-basics-video/cnc-ecourse-day-6-cnc-machining
http://www.cncinformation.com/cnc-ecourse-videos-learn-cnc-cnc-basics-video/cnc-ecourse-day-7-cnc-final-projects-2 |
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jasonlocher
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 614
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| How Goes It wrote: | | lavardera wrote: | | ... but I'd like to learn a bit more before so I don't come across as knowing nothing - not being taken seriously. |
You know --- I think I've made a living out of not coming across looking as dumb as I really am. LOL
So from what I'm told and from what I've read, and with regards to router tables (which I'm guessing is likely quite similar to your assembler as to the CNC basics), there's a few ways you could go about this.
You could go from a 2D CAD (with a floor plan),
Export using DWG or DXF,
Import into your Modeler where you model the walls in 3D showing studs, headers, etc.,
Likely export out of your Modeler using SAT, STEP or IGES,
Import into a CAD/CAM that has the particular Post Processor (G-code writer) that will work with the Controller on the Router Table you are using.
|
sounds like something FormZ could do. |
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How Goes It
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| jasonlocher wrote: | | sounds like something FormZ could do. |
form•Z has been creating models for router tables since 1995.
Below is an excerpt out of In•form•Z June 1995
Here is the URL for the whole page (takes a long time to load) -- ftp://ftp.formz.com/pub/formz/PDF_files/tutorials/STL_part.pdf
BELOW IS ONE WAY OF DOING CNC USING FORM•Z ---------
1) The model is done in form•Z
2) You export the model in SAT, STEP, or IGES file format.
3) Import your file into a CAM program where the toolpath is done and where you use a particular Post Processor(within the CAM program) to write the G-code for export.
4) The G-code file is imported into the Controller of the CNC Router Table
Each CNC router table requires a particular G-code file. So when you are in your CAM program, you need to make sure that you use the particular Post Processor (a kind of a file translator plug-in that makes G-code) that will produce the proper G-code file that is compatible with the particular CNC machine you are going to.
If you are going to some off-brand CNC machine, you may need to have someone write a custom Post Processor that will get you into that CNC router or CNC mill or whatever. |
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How Goes It
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 337
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lavardera
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 414
Location: merchantville, nj
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the links - I looked at the intro video, part 1.
I understand what you are saying when you compare moving a router to moving a stud or a sill plate, but its not the same thing. I can draw the path of a router to end up with a cabinet panel that I want to make. I can't draw the path a stud must follow from the rack to the fab table, so there is something else going on there. Its like if you had to tell your printer where to get a sheet of paper in the supply closet when you went to print.
So what is not clear to me is what you have to draw to represent a framed wall, vs represent a routed path. I don't want to belabor this. I have to go out and learn, and I'll come back with what I find out.
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greg |
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