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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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 Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | | Quote: | | While talking about Frank Lloyd Wright, I'll have to take a picture and post it, one of the structural engineers that looked at the porches built a "mini Robie house" just a few blocks away from where the porch collapsed, it's neat. |
If you think that is some fancy engineering work you should see a space shuttle they are incredible. (oh wait two have had catastrophic failure)
Fire the architect! |
I have been to the Robie house a number of times and never tire of it. The cantilever over the porch is unbelievable and there has never been structural issues with it.
The Cantilever at the auto-court is just as impressive as the one at the front.
The perceptions that Mr. Wright had faulty structural design and so on is pure myth. Rather, such as at Fallingwater, he was pushing the envelop of building technology and the abilities of the contractors. Same with the Guggenheim - it took 10 years for construction technology to advance to the point he could get the building constructed.
IN FACT - the contractors were so afraid to remove the forms from Unity Temple in fear they would either drown in concrete or be crushed by it... that Mr. Wright began to remove the forms himself.... during lunch.
| hungryarchitect wrote: | | After all, Frank Lloyd Wright was a building designer and he was whole heck better than I am. |
To refer to Mr. Wright as a 'building designer" is absolutely asinine. While codified licensing of architects did not take place until the 1930's, Mr. Wright was educated (U of Wisconsin - a degree in engineering) and apprenticed under Mr. Silsbee and Mr. Sullivan, which was one of the two traditional methods of becoming an architect prior to the 1930's. The other having a formal architectural education at institutions such as MIT or the Ecole. There were "building designers" - people who did not refer to themselves as architects, but rather Draughtsman or Designer. IF you have ever seen drawings from this era - you can find where the author defines themselves as such. But Architect was clearly considered a separate and distinct profession from "building designer". Furthermore, Mr. Wright referred to himself as an architect and like many architects of his generation - receive licensure in the 1930's (I think through grandfathering - they simple applied at that time) Also - the AIA was extremely strong at this time and did much at the local level to define professional status. There was a time when US Presidents actually attended the AIA Conventions (the last being in the 1920's). Now they confuse the AIA with AA 
I realize that the history of our profession is not clearly or thoughtfully taught in academia - but really - Frank Lloyd Wright..... a building designer. |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
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I think it is a fair enough description
| Quote: | | Frank Lloyd Wright was born in Richland Center, Wisconsin and, like Robert C. Spencer, Jr., attended the University of Wisconsin. In 1887, only a few months before finishing his degree in Civil Engineering, Wright left Wisconsin in order to pursue an architectural career in Chicago, where he went to work for J. Lyman Silsbee, a prominent residential architect who had studied at MIT and was responsible for the popularization in the mid-west of the Shingle Style architecture of New England. In 1888, Wright left Silsbee's employ and entered the office of Adler & Sullivan, where he remained for seven years, handling most of Louis Sullivan's domestic projects. |
and from Wiki:
| Quote: | | Wright attended a Madison high school but there is no evidence he ever graduated. He was admitted to the University of Wisconsin-Madison as a special student in 1886. There he joined Phi Delta Theta fraternity, took classes part-time for two semesters, and worked with a professor of civil engineering, Allan D. Conover. In 1887, Wright left the school without taking a degree (although he was granted an honorary Doctorate of Fine Arts from the University in 1955). He moved to Chicago which was still rebuilding from the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, and he joined the architectural firm of Joseph Lyman Silsbee. Within a year, he left Silsbee to work for the firm of Adler & Sullivan as an apprentice to Louis Sullivan. |
By today's standards Wright could not obtain a license to practice architecture in most states. This would make him what we consider to be a residential designer. That being said he was clearly an extraordinary person.
| Quote: | | Furthermore, Mr. Wright referred to himself as an architect and like many architects of his generation |
What kind of logic is this? Grimmes apparently also refers to himself as an architect, does that make him one?
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http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog
Last edited by csintexas on Fri May 15, 2009 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: |
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What a ridiculous comment - you have to use the standard of his time. Just as you would for Ictinus, Palladio, Bramante, the Chartres Master (Chartres Cathedral - 1194), Sir John Soane, et al.
Should we discount Honus Wagner as the greatest third baseman because he played in the dead ball era? Or Heinie Groh's batting average because he used Bottle Bat (which was legal at the time)..... Or that beer and hot dogs were like steroids to the spam. |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | you have to use the standard of his time |
No we do not. We are not concerned with the past only the present. In this situation Wright is being used as a comparison, an example that any particular qualification (in this case a college or even high school degree and passing an ARE don't actually prove that someone is competent or not.
Are you are asserting that Wright would not be a competent architect or designer today with the training he received?
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http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| I guess you can do or say anything if you don't have any academic rigor. |
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Mark Mc
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Here's the Robie-like place, I drove by there this morning (not great pics, it was raining pretty hard):
Some might find this interesting, obviously not csintexas, but I have a set of the plans for the Robie house, my friends reprographics shop reproduced the plans from originals for the restoration years back.
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: |
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This is the William Martin House (1903) by Wright. Its in Oak Park. There are a couple of houses like this where there is a single story projection with a cantilever over a private porch.
I would say this is what probably inspired the house near you. |
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Mark Mc
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | | Quote: | | you have to use the standard of his time |
No we do not. We are not concerned with the past only the present. In this situation Wright is being used as a comparison, an example that any particular qualification (in this case a college or even high school degree and passing an ARE don't actually prove that someone is competent or not.
Are you are asserting that Wright would not be a competent architect or designer today with the training he received? |
Nobody is comparing Grimes to FLW, apples and oranges, it would be like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Yugo, and referring to Grimes as a Yugo is being kind.
There is no comparison back when FLW was designing homes here in Illinois and Wisconsin there were no laws requiring licensed architects on residential homes like there are now in certain areas, things are quite different now. Years ago you could drive your car without seat belts, anywhere in the country, heck, some cars didn't even come equipped with seat belts. Now you have to where them in most places, you'll get a ticket if you don't. You know why that is, it's the law. You see, things change, the laws change, may not always be for the best, but that's the way it is. Personally I don't like the seat belt laws, but until I figure out how to disconnect the annoying warning tone I'll be wearing them.
I don't think you'll ever be reading books or watching TV programs about homes designed by Paul Grimes, nor do I think he will be the topic of discussion in architectural schools other than as it relates to his unlicensed practice of architecture in Illinois.
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Neither of you (as far as I can discern from this conversation) are particularly bright.
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You see, things change, the laws change, may not always be for the best, but that's the way it is. |
Duh!
Mark in particular seems to be just short of an idiot.
(this isn't about grimmes you donkey)
Phansford wouldn't know academic rigor if it bit him on the spam. Wake up man! Are you seriously telling me you don't understand what hungryarchitect is saying?
It is absolutely incredible to me that two college trained individuals can actually be this dense. Are you two on drugs?
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog
Last edited by csintexas on Fri May 15, 2009 11:18 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Mark Mc
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| phansford wrote: | This is the William Martin House (1903) by Wright. Its in Oak Park. There are a couple of houses like this where there is a single story projection with a cantilever over a private porch.
I would say this is what probably inspired the house near you. |
I'm familiar with that house, when I was young I worked in that area and the surrounding areas. There's quite a few FLW houses in Oak Park and Illinois. I worked with some guys that lived in Highland Wisconsin, their grandfathers worked on FLW projects in Spring Green (Taliesin), they had pictures of their grandfathers with him, pretty cool. If you like cantilevers, the House on the Rock is just down the road from Taliesin, very unique place.
There's a lot of cool architecture in the Chicagoland area, here's a picture of the house across the street from me, I call it the Flintstone house, I think it's done by a fairly well know architect, but the name escapes me. It's claim to fame was that it was the house Phil Bartoli the mob boss in the TV show Crime Story.
Last edited by Mark Mc on Fri May 15, 2009 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mark Mc
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | Neither of you (as far as I can discern from this conversation) are particularly bright.
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You see, things change, the laws change, may not always be for the best, but that's the way it is. |
Duh!
Mark in particular seems to be just short of an idiot.
(this isn't about grimmes you donkey)
Phansford wouldn't know academic rigor if it bit him on the spam.
It is absolutely incredible to me that two college trained individuals can actually be this dense. Are you two on drugs? |
Coming from you that means absolutely zip, nada, zero. But if I'm looking for help insulting people, name calling and acting like a child I'll keep you in mind.
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: |
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You can't even follow up on a simple question.
In place of any intelligent discussion we have these two looking at picture books. What next -we going to break out the crayons?
Oh dude, look at those cantilevers, Man that is like way awesome!
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog
Last edited by csintexas on Fri May 15, 2009 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: |
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BTW Mark - Thanks for posting the photos of the house near you.....
We get to Chicago every couple of years and have been to Oak Park about every time. Good stuff. I have yet to see the inside of Robie since its renovation.
Getting to Chicago is always a good time. |
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Mark Mc
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | | You can't even follow up on a simple question. |
Sure I can, but I decide what I will follow up on, I could tell you the sky was blue and post a picture of it and you'd still argue. Plus I don't respond well to people that say things such as:
| csintexas wrote: | Your stupid drawing don't mean anything.
Your accusation are just bizarre I am not sure you are sane.
Honestly phansford if this is the sort of thing you would provide as evidence you need to get out of the business
I told you your drawings are stupid because they are stupid...........
Again: I called your drawing stupid because it is a stupid drawing.
Your drawing is stupid because a drawing does not constitute proof.
You would be an extremely lousy lawyer.
You must have just purchased a copy of structural engineering for dummies.
Only a fool would make calculations based on incomplete information and unlike yourself I am no fool.
If Mark is a structural engineer than God help us all.
So what? Did you actually need seven years of college in order to know how to hire professionals?
Neither of you (as far as I can discern from this conversation) are particularly bright.
Duh!
Mark in particular seems to be just short of an idiot.
(this isn't about grimmes you donkey)
Phansford wouldn't know academic rigor if it bit him on the spam. Wake up man!
It is absolutely incredible to me that two college trained individuals can actually be this dense. Are you two on drugs?
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| csintexas wrote: | In place of any intelligent discussion we have these two looking at picture books. What next -we going to break out the crayons?
Oh dude, look at those cantilevers, Man that is like way awesome! |
Are you sure your not a kid playing on your daddies computer while he's away at work? I'm not sure you are even a home designer, all we have is your word for it.
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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I never asked you to believe me and I absolutely do not care what you believe.
BTW, did you ever figure out the difference between a drawing and reality?
It's kind of funny how you don't mind implying the police chief may be corrupt (with a disclaimer) but get so offended if someone throws a few insults your way.
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
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